Chaos Daemon Princes are a regular staple in CSM list and with good reason. They provide us with a unit not available to most power armor codices and that is their MC status, but in today's age of missile launcher spam and other high strength weapons, the daemon prince has a short life expectancy.
The old tourney staple (and still fairly common) DP is the Lash DP, 155 points with wings and the ability to throw units around or clump them up is a tried and true practice, but at T5 with a 5++, they have a tendancy to die in the first two turns, which sucks because lash is really needed in turn 3+ for objective denial and for mopping up infantry with the mighty plasma cannon.
I wouldn't go so far as to say Lash is a dead tactic; we have had a Lash CSM army tie first in a local tourney and do quite well for some time in our area. My concern however is that hiding behind rhino chassis and hoping for cover can be a dicey crutch to prop yourself upon and lash armies are typically built to synergize with the lash supporting their fire.
With that being said, I prefer a much more durable prince. The internet has been in love with the winged Warptime Nurgle Prince for quite some time and with T6 and WT's awesome re-rolling ability, it is understandable - but again, we live in the age of high strength weapons like missile launchers and well ... guard, so many times, the Nurgle DP is relying on his 5+ to carry him into the assault range.
Lately, I have been looking at the Tzeencth Prince more and more as I have seen Captain Obvious make great use of the 4++ in is daemons. CSM Tzeentch princes are a little stronger, have cheap wings and can still carry the bolt (or warptime if they wish). This has me wondering lately if the Tzeentch Prince could be the way forward as he could absorb more of that S8 AP3 firepower, while still delivering some decent anti-infantry and anti-tank assault power.
I have also been looking into using Chaos Terminators more and maybe trying my hand at a little Chaos MSU (multiple small unit) action to dust off the old traitors in a non-counts-as way.
Here is a MSU CSM list Captain Obvious and I were talking about based on utilizing the terminators. The idea is to get us some anti-transport and supression fire, while delivering enough units to the field to support each other across the spectrum of book missions - possibly also the typical multi-layered tourney primers, such as the Adepticon style missions.
Tzeentch Prince, Wings (either Warptime or Bolt)
Tzeentch Prince, Wings (either WT or Bolt)
3x Terminators - 1x Reaper Autocannon
3x Terminators - 1x Reaper Autocannon
3x Terminators - 1x Reaper Autocannon
5x Plague Marines 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Plague Marines 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Plague Marines 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Plague Marines 2x Meltaguns, Rhino
5x Havocs 4x Missile Launchers
5x Havocs 4x Missile Launchers
2x Obliterators
1835
Now this would leave 15 points to play around with which could go toward combi weapons ect. but what it does provide is yes, a lot of spam for those who hate spammy lists (lol), 4 rhino chassis carrying tougher 5 man squads with melta, some good missile support, some transport suppression from the termies, the flexibility of a squad of Oblitz and the Princes, who I are left open for the moment because I feel like WT is good for chasing vehicles down and hopefully hitting if they move 12" OR for fighting tougher infantry - though Bolt gives me AP 1 shots at distance - and I am still questionable as I have rarely used bolt in the past and when I did, the Space Marines were the only 5th edition codex on the block.
The concerns I have are that each unit isn't very tough on its own, but by being in support of each other, the army is a little tougher to deal with. The list overcomes (just barely) the typical lack of long range firepower the codex suffers as a whole, while providing enough units to make target priority an issue for the opponent.
I admittedly haven't really messed around with MSU in my Chaos Space Marine armies before and typically run a strong Assault element like 2x DPs with a greater daemon or an Abbadon, DP greater Daemon layout always supported with obliterator firepower. So, I figured I would throw this up against the wall and see what my fellow Dark Disciples and gamers thought.
Awesome post. I've been putting my Death Guard force together for about 4-5 months. Right now my army usually consists of 3 plague marine units (two plasma, two plasma, two melta), obliterators, terminators, terminator lord, warptime nurgle daemon prince, and a defiler now.
ReplyDeletePeople really don't ever remember that the daemon prince is a MC. I've had a lot of luck with him just flying in and tearing stuff up.
I was disheartened in a couple games recently when my fearless terminator lord ran off the board with my terminators because they lost dudes to shooting / melee.
I'd love to hear your advice on defilers. I never really liked them because they look like a bad Meijer off-brand toy, but I built mine and I think the paint scheme will make it look better. I think in the near future I'll just use three smaller units of plague marines and bring in another defiler or vindicator.
An amazing idea OST, i really like the list and even I would be weary of it. I have been saying for awhile there are some really scary things in that codex where if they get put together right they can hurt.
ReplyDeleteMuggins, personally i think defilers are scary, but thats just me, they can cause so much widespread damage because they are so big
You know that when you use Lash of Submission every single models moves in the same direction, the same distance, right? Thus you cannot ever clump models to abuse template weapons.
ReplyDeleteFrom the FAQ - You can move people whatever way you want. So yes you can lash them into a clump.
ReplyDeleteQ. Can you use Lash of Submission to move models around within a unit and re-arrange them? Can models be moved out of unit coherency? Can a unit be moved out of combat? If a unit is moved into dangerous terrain, do they have to test? If jump infantry are moved, are they assumed to be using their packs or walking? Can a unit be shoved right off the table, or into impassable terrain?
A. The move created by this power is executed exactly like a normal move, except that it’s not slowed by difficult terrain. It follows that, for example:
It also lists what you can do with them - but basically you move them just like a normal move. So you can break coherency, but can do whatever else you want like holding hands all together and get clumped by plasma cannons.
Thanks Goatboy, you just saved me a FAQ reference.
ReplyDeleteYou pretty much had to carry the FAQ around with you in the hay day of Lash lists because everyone else had their own version of how it worked.
Lord Solar Steve and I had a discussion on the phone about the list and I think some really good points came up regarding the ability of sentinels and other walkers to just lock units in combat (the termies have power weapons, plaguers have no champs ect).
ReplyDeleteIts a really valid concern as there just isn't any way around it in this build and frankly, I think CSM really don't MSU very well. Some of the trouble that occurs comes from the low amount of armour found in lists that include Princes and Oblits - making the standard three rhinos pretty easy targets. I do tend to focus a little more into CC than the list here, but I wanted to garner some opinions from the readers to see what they thought and if you al want to offer up something of your own, I am all ears ... or eyes ... or whatever.
Yes, you don't have fists to scare away Armored Sentinels - but you also don't have units large enough to fully wrap an Armored Sentinel/Dreadnaught. This means one of your oblits (chainfists? or just powerfists) or a prince can charge in, wreck the walker, and free up the unit.
ReplyDeleteNo list can do everything.
I know Space Wolves have made missile launchers all the rage right now but frankly Havoks are not cost effective. For less points you will get more from Predators and you can daemonically possess them (if you have the points) to keep them shooting.
ReplyDeleteMy question then for you Michael is "How is a BS 3 Tank with 3 guns max and likely no cover save going to make up for 4 BS 4 missile launchers likely sitting in cover?"
ReplyDeleteMissile are not the rage because of wolves - it is a simple matter of recieving a greater volume of high S shots at BS 4 than the oblits generate while also not being shaken or stunned by stray lascannons. The key is survivability in a very anti-mech environment - The Havocs are harder to remove than a pred and more points efficient than the pred as well, especially if it is possessed.
Just read the fallowing name and figure out how to fit it in the list to fit your personal style.
ReplyDelete"SUMMONED GREATER DAEMON = AWESOME!!!"
This unit it pure win that I don't even need to explain how it works because it's that good. If "SUMMONED GREATER DAEMON!!!" is not your personal favorite anymore, make it your personal favorite.
If your plan with the terminators is walking support, sure, reaper cannon. But if you are planning to DS them for some armor busting, enjoy the 3 combi-meltas built.
Alex, I love the enthusiasm. About a year ago, I wrote an article on the awesome that is the summoned daemon, especially when ganged up with Princes.
ReplyDeleteGots a link to that article? I find summoned greater daemons to be pretty cool.
ReplyDeleteSummoned greater deamon = waste of points.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry but i have proven it time and time again. If i know as a player its in your list i will pop your transport that has your champion in it. And dont tell me you are fielding 5-6 champions... its not point cost effective out of regular squads. I have seen it work as part of a bike squad, but in general, i am going to target those champs so hard that you wont be able to summon him in time and then you not only wasted points on the champion, you wasted it on the Greater daemon
Just my opinion and one i expressed to OST last night as well.