Tuesday, March 29, 2011

MMOSM episode 1. Duplicate Psychic Powers?

Cvinton with a new segment I will hopefully stick with an won't go the way of the Dodo like most of my "BRILLIANT!" ideas. Mysterious Mysteries will be were I present interesting rules questions/rule revelations to even simple 'veteran' level rules new players can use. There will never be an answer if its a rules argument but can be useful as a was to discuss (civilly, cpt obvious) the cracks between rules were players who study the Big Rule Book the way a priest studies the bible find inquiries into the fabric of the game itself.

A few base rules for MMOSM are

1. There is no answer, your opinion cannot be wrong nor can it be right. Unless it is spelled out, not implied, its opinion. The grey area can exist in the actual language i.e. nouns, adjectives, misplaced modifiers, dangling prepositions, ect. so just keep that in mind. I'm not a RAW person, because if I was I'd never be able to play 40k because the deployment rules don't exist, but I'm not a rules as intended person because if I was I'd never play 40k because I've never met a 40k author to know them enough to know their intentions. You should be in the middle too.

2. If you reference something, you have to cite, you have to quote p## (source). . For example "Any game that you tie twice to see who goes first is a draw. '...no single dice may be rerolled more than once." P2 BRB. This rule isn't to test you on your APA, its just so people can figure out what the hell you're talking about and check to see if something was taken out of context.

3. People get attached to their rulings/way they've been doing it. Nothing is personal. I'll freely delete comments that are catty, so don't be.

4. Try to be insightful in your comments. "We don't do that because it isn't fair." Thats cool, why isn't it fair? What have you seen that is unfair? Elaborate.

Up first is a question I noticed when I was reading the INAT FAQ. I read in the FAQ under the psykers section; "Q: Can a psyker who is able to use more than one psychic power per turn use the same power more than once in a turn? A: Unless psecified otherwise, a psyker can only use any given psychic shooting attack once per turn [RAW]. There is however, no such general restriction on psychic powers that aren't shooting attacks [clarification]." (P9 INAT)

So I dig in the rule book. "Psykers can use one psychi power per turn." (P50 BRB). So that seems obvious and then "Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack per turn..." (P50 BRB). Huh, that means that 'one' they mention means numeric one (1). But wait, "However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn)."(P50 BRB).

I really have to conclude that the first quote does intend the numeric value of 1. One can be an adjective modifying a noun (numeric), like "one day" or "one psychic power" and it can be a pronoun (identifier) like "You are the one, Neo." or "I used one psyic power." You can't really be both in the same sentence. I don't intent to find some English doctoral student that plays 40k (my bff is that) because if I do, I'll be beaten senseless by their superiority. The bottom line is that if this sentence limits the number of times the same power can be used, then there is not sentence that limits how many powers can be used per turn and vise versa.

The last quote has this weird reference to some non existent statement about how the same power cannot be used twice in a turn. I have to believe it refers to my middle quote about "Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack.." (p50 BRB) meaning in the end you can shoot twice but 'still' only be able to use the same power once.

In conclusion, after really exploring the rules, I've never really thought about this, but I have to agree with the INAT FAQ. This will mean your space marine libby can gate twice in a turn, jumping upwards of 48 inches and grey knight libbys can summon 2 units to him from anywhere on the board. I can't really find any other earth shattering changes, but I think those two are cool enough to make people want to say you can do this. Personally, I never paid for the upgrade, but being able to gate twice would be worth the 50 points to me. Sure you'll run twice the risk of losing a squad member but to have your terminators go 48" in a single turn...or any squad for that matter, is huge.

What do you think? Has this always been the way you've done it or is your mind just as blown as mine was?


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  2. you can only use one power, shooting or otherwise, per player turn. If you can use two powers they cannot be the same unless you have a piece of war gear which allows you to. IE the Staff of Ulthamar lets Eldrad cast 3 powers per player turn tow of which may be the same.

    you can't double up on powers with a libby, cast the same power twice. You can't use psychic powers that are not shooting attacks because of the description of the powers. Gate of Infinity states it is used at the begining of the libbys movement. he can't use the same power twice as per the rules, also Logic would say since he has already moved he can't use the power again as he has already moved.

    and Cpt stop trollin.

  3. Also if anybody tried to gate twice I would punch them in the mouth as they are trying to power game although I would invite them to do so because they are rolling on 3d6 and adding them all together :-)

  4. The question seems strange to me despite how well written the post is. It is generally accepted in 40k that a model may not cast Tue same power twice in a row and though I know it is in the book, I also don't have time to look it up, rendering my point moot.

    That being said, I can think of few occasions outside of a 5th turn contest from across the long edge. I can think of plenty of reasons why you would use gate plus avenger or gate plus nullzone, the first helps the libby bust units like pathfinder, the second helps get a first turn null zone in, so the rest of the army's shooting can tear up those units who would rely on their invuls to survive. This is a good trick I have seen Marine players use against my daemon princes and zoanthropes to great effect in the past.

    This is why I stand by the fact that the best C:SM lists are focused on shooting with a light assault element usually supporting a librarian. So, while I didn't address the dupe subject, I at least offered why I wouldn't do it.

  5. OK according to the rules it says no where that u cant use the same Non-shooting power in a turn.

    It does say that you can not use the same shooting one, but with the last sentance on the page it makes it tricky to understand.

    Maybe the eldar codex says a caster can only use the same power once...well thats the codex and there is nothing that says space marines cant.

    Granted Gateing 2 times in 1 turn really doesnt do much for you. Like OST said Gate of affinity is used with other powers to make it stronger. Most people will use the tried and true tactic of gate+null zone then use the rest of your shooting to take down the nasties relying on inv.

    Maybe you could use it to ercast a failed power i suppose, but i really dont see it as game breeaking

  6. Wasn't this already covered in the Chaos FAQ? You can't use the same psychic shooting power more than once in the same turn, but other powers are fine to use multiple times so long as you can use more than a single psychic power a turn.

  7. Agreed with winter, the Chaos Marine FAQ is a good precedent for this:

    "Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times per turn, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!"

    Of course, Eldar Spirit Stones have a specific wording that prevents them from being used for the same power twice.

    Where I see this being really useful these days is with all the Psychic defense out there. Cast Null Zone (for example), have it canceled by hood, cast it again.

  8. Im not a huge fan of cross faqing and cross codexing.....Just dotn feel that it is a viable answer.