So I posted once on another site looking for some input on airborne guard. So it's open forum time, Q&A time.
HQ-
CCS
Creed, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Vox, Chimera (Multi laser, Heavy Flamer)
260
Troop
Veterans
Vox, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun x 2
115
Veterans
Vox, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun x 2
115
Veterans
Vox, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun x 2
115
Veterans
Vox, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun x 2, Chimera (Multi laser, Heavy Flamer)
170
Fast Attack
Vendetta, 3 TL LC
130
Vendetta, 3 TL LC
130
Vendetta, 3 TL LC
130
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Demolisher
165
Leman Russ Demolisher
165
Its my first time with an airborne-ish list and I'm just looking at points and seeing whats worth it and what can be different. I'm used to playing all my vet squads in Chimeras but I want to get the Vendetta's a try and see if they're what everyone says they are. Some areas of questions are:
Heavy flamers in the squads worth it? I find them AMAZING in the chimera assault but not being able to shoot out of the vendetta makes them less cool for 20 points (Yes, I shoot them out of my chimera, RAW people learn to relax). If I dropped the Heavy flamer I'm that much closer to putting the demo doctrine back on them.
Leaman Russ Demolisher? They work out well for me with the Chimera assault, but I'm wondering if with airborne if its better to drop them for more gunships? Dropping both of them would give me enough to put the CCS and the other Chimera squad in a gun ship, but then I run into the problem of giving orders while in a transport, which is the next point..
Is getting orders to your troops not as important? In the chimera list its the key to the whole list. Jumping out ten guys with a demo charge, HF, 2 Meltas and First Rank! Second Rank! will hose a squad to nothing. (Or Bring it down!). If the orders are not as important, I can easily drop creed for the much less expensive commander. Which also frees up points for more gun ships or making my vet squads beefy-er with powerfists on sergeants or doctrines.
Do the vet squads even get out fo the ships? It seems like if I drop creed, (90 points) and the two demolishers, (330), that's a total of 420 points and that's 3 more gun ships with 40 points left over to put powerfists in my squads. Sure they'll be empty but its still 3 TL Las cannons. That's a total of 18 TL Las Cannons Alpha striking. I can't imagine Meltaguns are going to do what they can't. (Unless its a Landraider or something) Also, if the sqauad dont ever get out why not just load them up with platoons for cheaper just to make them scoring? I bet you could do a 9 vendetta list in 1500 with just platoons. At that point I'd do like 6 vendettas and 3 valkyres just so that I can have some horde sweeping power too. I digress....
What about keeping creed and just making his chimera have scout with his tactical genius? I'd only be interested in keeping him if I thought my vets ever got out of their gun ships. I only want creed for his ability to issue 4 orders/turn.
I just think you're missing some deep striking re-roll scatter Storm Troopers with Meltaguns. I was lazy to count your total points but I think a Manticore is worth it in your case.
ReplyDeleteYour list might struggle against a full swarm/horde army. Despite the fact that you have heavy flamers, there's just so much you can ever kill. Ork Lootas will torture you, Tyranid Hive Guards will torture you as well.
So maybe get some Valkyries for some anti-infantry?
Having done a few Airborne lists at lower point levels, I may be able to answer some of your questions. Take it with a grain of salt, though.
ReplyDeleteFirst things first- airborne lists are about the Alpha strike. Get yourself an Astropath so you can reserve all if you get 2nd turn and then nuke the crap out of whatever can hurt your fragile birds. You need to incapacitate the enemy's antitank in 1 turn if possible. If not, your birds will start falling.
Your vets WILL be getting out of their ships. It's too much of a penalty to hold that much firepower inside, which is also a reason to think about Valkyrie vs Vendetta. The Vendetta you never want to move over 6", making its use as a transport a bit limited. You CAN, but most often you won't as 3 TL LCs are just too hard to give up.
A Valkyrie, on the other hand, has no problem moving 12" every turn and would add some more anti-horde to your list. The vets in those will actually get to use their guns at their short ranges, so make sure they pack a wallop when they land. Look at it this way- the Vendetta is a gunship that happens to be able to carry scoring troops inside. Valkyries are transports that happen to have pretty good guns.
The platoon rout is a great one for heavy Vendetta lists, as you don't really need your boys to get out. And if they are things like SWS with 3 flamers or demo charges, they can add some much needed anti-horde as well, and just as effectively as vet squads.
I don't really see the Demolishers in this list- if you want heavy tanks go for standard Russes. Longer range and pretty much equally effective anti-horde power will do good things for you. You have enough AP2 thanks to all of the Vendettas and meltaguns.
Well, this is getting pretty long- maybe I should do a post about it at some point... :) And as always, take this with a grain of salt.
I like it, but... um... three parter:
ReplyDeleteParte the Firste: One of the selling points of Creed is his lovely ability to issue 4 orders a round, not to mention the handy "allow a unit to outflank" he brings. That said he's better off ordering 4 heavy weapon teams per round to A) twin link (till there ain't no tanks left to kill) and B) ignore cover (to kill the troops that bloom from exploded AFV's). For that matter, buy an Astropath and then some evil killy inquisition unit like Seraphim, and send them into your enemy's line to flame things to death.
Parte the Seconde: Keep the Vendettas; they're lovely for popping tanks, and when you give them Heavy Bolter sponsons, they can massacre troop squads between those and the TLLC's. Stick the Platoon Command squads and/or a vet squad in a pair of them instead. Your enemy will groan when your downed Vendettas bloom melta/heavy flamer troops.
Parte the Thirde: I love Russes, but I also love Hydras. They're cheaper and have two TLAC's that can reach out and kill light armor at 72 inches. Plus, they're also lovely for killing MEQ, monstrous creatures, etc. Demolishers are great, don't get me wrong, but for the price you can buy a brace of Hydras, and they're much more win.
I worked around the list and drop the two demo's and creed and added in 1 more vendetta, 1 vet sqaud, and 2 valks. I agree totally with both points that the horde needs to be dealt with.
ReplyDeleteI'm leery about using tanks or anything else considering that I want everthing to deep strike and/or flank to get that alpha strike.
"Look at it this way- the Vendetta is a gunship that happens to be able to carry scoring troops inside. Valkyries are transports that happen to have pretty good guns." Is a great line, Ill have to adjust the intention of the squad inside. I bet the melta guns in the vendettas hanging out way in the back aren't going to do much when the ship goes down.
Maybe it'd be best to load up a platoon in the vendettas just to make them scoring and the vets in the Valkyrie so that when it goes down there are meltas IN YO FASE!
Thanks for the comments, I'll start playing with the list to see how it differs from my Chimera list and report back.
Having a look at your list, and your revisions in your last comment.
ReplyDeleteI have to say that I would drop the heavy flamers from all the squads, and make some of the Veteran squads entirely horde focussed, so 3 x Flamers, or 2 x Flamer and 1 Heavy Flamer, then bump a couple of your other squads upto Anti-Tank with just 3 Meltas.
bring in the Valks will be a big help as they really can throw down some hurt on the Horde Armies.
I have to say that I agree with your worries about Tanks, if you reserve it normally you really want it to be a standard Leman Russ for the extra range of the battle cannon.
I am seriously considering if I can squeeze Creed into my list, doing so would give me a Tank with Scout which is aweseom for he extra move, or for the Outflank, meaning i can get an extra turns movement for all my units, or they can all outflank.
If you decide to go on the Alpha strike then you definately need to squeeze in an Astropath, the more that turns up the more damage it does.
The other thing to consider is if you get first turn then starting all of your forces on the table, and zipping your Valks and Vendettas 24" for their scout move. Now here is the interesting bit... because they mvoed 24" (going flat out) they should get a cover save in the first turn.
I will be honest we havent been able to confirm one way or the other on this, but i am lucky and the people I game against dont really care, they see the advantage that an immobilised result when I do this makes my flyers go pop lol.
Just as an alternate view here is a link to my Airborne 1500 point list.
http://varcancluster.blogspot.com/2009/11/valks-vendettas-then-more-valks.html
I really want to have the whole army scout on. I don't want anything on the board because if I have one lonely hydra squadron or some poor chimera or rattling squad its going to eat the opponents entire shoot phase. Anything I add to list needs to be scouting or deep striking on.
ReplyDeleteThe new revised list-
CCS, 4 melta, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet
165
Guardsmen Marbo
65
Infantry Platoon
-PCS 3 Flamers 1 Heavy Flamer
-IS 1 Flamer
-IS 1 Flamer
-SWS 3 Flamers
-SWS 3 Flamers
260
Vet Squad
3 Meltaguns
100
Vendetta squadron 3
390
Vendetta Squadron 2
260
Valkyrie Squadron 2 Multiple rockets
260
1500 points.
All squads have a gunship, and 6 of them will be scoring.
Plenty of flamers, plenty of las cannons and everything deep strikes or scouts on. I feel like with the heavy presence of the las cannons, 15 twin linked shots then I'll be set for breaking up the usual 10-13 armors and for landraiders or other 14 armor targets I'll break out the melta but I don't see many people using more than one or two of them in 1500 points.
I'm thinking this is a pretty nasty list as long as I get have an average alpha strike. I can see it being ugly when I can't disable/destroy my priority targets with my alpha strike via some unlucky rolls.
I got the all clear with the wife to buy up 9 Valkyries too. Watch out Evolution....
SAMSQUANCH MONSTER will not be happy with you....
ReplyDeletenope...He should stick with his space puppies and not venture into my IG area!
ReplyDeleteOh is that so Mr Bike Marine?
ReplyDeleteHey, they were ultramarine and if he has a problem with my fierce loyalty, he should take it up with the emperor and find the Inquisition up his ass in a second (And not the hottie witch hunter ones). FOR THE EMPEROR!
ReplyDelete