Old school here to talk about a disturbing discovery I made at a game store I visited while out of town. First off, great store, plenty of good stuff to say, but I will save that to discuss this issue.
. A couple of local regulars were talking about their games and I decided to join the conversation. We had only been talking for a couple of minutes when something odd came up. A local said that his opponent blew up one of his land raiders, but it didn't matter because it was the empty one. I asked why his opponent didn't blow up one of the raiders with terminators inside and he laughed. He said that the opponent had no way of knowing what was inside the land raider because you don't have to tell your opponent the contents of your transports.
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I disagreed with this because it sets an environment conducive to cheating. For example, say I have 3 transports on the board, two filled with bolter chumps and the other with melta armed chosen. Now my opponent blows up my farthest rhino. I know the rhino has the meltas in it, but my opponent does not. So I dissembark a squad of chumps instead and the next turn unload a melta squad from a rhino that happens to have been unmolested and very close.to his land raider. This is called inter-transport teleportation and it is cheating straight up, but having an environment that supports not discussing contents of transports is an invitation to cheaters.
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When I explained this to the local, he said "that's just part of 40k". At this point I was over the discussion and changed the subject, but I can't help but wonder where else crap like this is the standard of play. So, how does this work where you play? Do you have a transport teleport problem or is there another wanky way of doing things you have seen played as a standard of business before?
I'm not sure about "wanky" (British slang), but I wouldn't stand for that kind of asshattery. I try to designate what squad is in which transport, not only for my clarity, but also for my opponent's. Usually I put a fire warrior on a devilfish, but I'm painting my wave serpents to show which units are in which transport.
ReplyDeleteHonesty is a part of being a good person, not just a good wargamer.
I've had a few guys at my old store do games with that rule. It actually lends a pretty cool factor to the game if you have specific ways of IDing the transports and people write there placements down. Of course it's not part of the actual rules (I think there's something about A Note on Secrecy or somesuch in the BRB) so go over it ahead of time with your opponent and get permission. Poor Orkses and DEldars get screwed over a bit (y'see, there open topped!), but still fun!
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Old School on this one. You run the risk of units playing leap frog between transports.
ReplyDeleteIf i ask another player whats in the transports I expect him to tell me. Its basically like asking to see the army list of the person you are playing. I get very suspicious if people will nto let me see their list. Thats when I break out the calculator.
Amazing how far some people will go to gain an advantage in what should be a fun game. I'd say, "ok, you don't have to tell me, but write down each squad type and tape it to the bottom of the vehicle and if I blow it up we can both see what it had in it at the beginning of the game".
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's necessarily fair to call these guys "cheaters;" though I won't argue that this approach to the game certainly makes cheating easier.
ReplyDeleteFantasy, locally, is played with closed lists: you disclose your unit types, mundane equipment and command groups. Magic items/banners/etc are things you're told about when they get used. I hate playing this way: I much, much prefer open lists where everyone knows what's going on.
But... it's the way the folks play. Everyone in the community knows that's how it's played and rolls with it.
So, these guys had a local metagame (the actual meaning of the word) that's different from the one you and I are used to and prefer... it doesn't necessarily mean they're cheaters.
hey Old School I lost your Number when I got my new phone gimme a ring or text later. I am working til 10
ReplyDeleteI never said these guys were cheaters but it would be foolish to think it never happens. I definitely think it should be written and marked somewhere. Imagine the bull that could happen if nobody had to write down where their scout biker mines went or where their yrgmal steamers were secretly deployed. They simply agree to accept the risk of being cheated.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's pretty bogus, but it certainly happens if folks don't enforce some kind of openness. My "favorite" version of this is the modeling deception, where the blinged out transport with the banners, aerials etc. ends up with a regualar squad while the half-painted one pops out a chapter master. Lame.
ReplyDelete@Rushputin - IIRC that's actually the intended way for Fantasy, or at least it was. Lists are still open at the end so you can doublecheck after the fact, but there are a number of things that are intended to be hidden until revealed, like some items, goblin fanatics, DE assassins, etc.
Well, you did title the post, "Beam me up cheater!"
ReplyDeleteAnd I won't argue that it doesn't open the door to easier cheating... but a cheater's a cheater's a cheater. Someone inclined to abuse this is just as likely to cheat some other way; a player who doesn't cheat... wouldn't abuse it.
I guess I did over sensationalize the title. I was really hoping to see some stories from folks who had caught transport teleporters, but the comments today have been no less entertaining.
ReplyDeleteIn my games, we don't reveal whats in the vehicles, I play with friends so we trust eachother to be honest. My chaos marine playing friend has his rhinos with the symbol of the chaos god relating to the unit it carries somewhere on it though. Nice way of doing it.
ReplyDeleteI play eldar and I write on my army list which unit is in which vehicle. My opponent can see it if they want but it doesn't usually come up.
Me personally... I would think twice about playing against someone who was hesitant to tell me what was inside a vehicle.
ReplyDeleteAll of my guys are mounted in vehicles and I will gladly tell my opponent who is where at any time.
Ron
From the Warp
There you go starting controversy again.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I prefer an environment where I can add a little bit of 'realism' by having a more closed approach to wargaming. Personally, I feel that if I can't trust my opponent to play honestly why am I playing with him/her?
ReplyDeleteBut, I understand that at gaming stores where the level of trust required for such an environment is absent. So, by default for the better of the group as a whole, you have to have full disclosure.
I don't even know why this is an argument. pretty sure its not covered in the rule book, which makes it a house rule. even if it is in the rule book... HOUSE RULES TRUMP THE RULE BOOK. "trump" is a euchre word for win and euchre is a card game for all of you non michiganians that probably don't know what euchre is...
ReplyDeleteJUDGED
- The Judge
Look guys, I think a degree of mystery around friends is great, but for tourney play and more competitive flgs games, I think there neess to be a clear and concise understanding of what is on the table. In my garage, we dont worry about it but only my friends play on the LAb lol. In the store, i play under more open terms as it also teaches a good habit to the newer players and keeps us all honest. Now of I had a Choice in pick up play, I would never play somebody i didn't trust. That's how I play this out.
ReplyDeleteAs soon as transports hit the table in deployment i start asking whats in them. If they wont tell me...they had best have a way to make them(a pice of folder paper on each or something) cause i wouldnt stand for terdness like that. If they flat out dont tell me or make them. Ill just scoop and play a real player ;)
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of secrecy it really adds to the flavor of the battle, but I agree that it must be write down what it contains and reveled when blown up or the first disembark or else full crap of cheating will come forward.
ReplyDeleteSecrecy does add a neat flavour to battle, but it's certainly something limited to friendly games with people you know and trust.
ReplyDeleteI play from an open list view - if anyone asks about anything I have, I tell them, and expect the same.
As Captain Obvious says, the moment a transport hits the table, I ask what's in them. When someone's unwilling to cooperate, and plays a very secretive game, it simply says something about their character.
Never ran into an issue with that, we always place the leader of a unit on the transport the unit is in to avoid confusion (read cheating).. I did have an opponent who was playing Marbo withhold the fact that he had a special wounds on 2+ wpn once. I had specifically asked what his WS, Str, init, Attacks were prior to deciding if I should charge him with shadowsun.. once I got into assault he then proclaimed I was "on the right track in asking, but I had failed to ask about special weapons".. I don't find that secrecy adds anything other than irritation to the game. Especially when you are just taking advantage of someones lack of familiarity with your codex. The vehicle teleport issue would only happen once before the player was removed from my likely opponents list.
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